Wingman training or trapping the Rat

[BigRat]

OK guys,

I brought this up in the SDL thread but this is good for everyone if you wish to participate.  I'm willing to put myself in harms way for the squad.  What I'm wanting to practice here is communicating with your wingman, and learning your tactics.  How are we going to do this you might ask , well by trying to kill me .  What I'm proposing is taking you and your wingman and by you two working together, killing me.  Now you can only be successful if you both are still flying at the end,  If I knock one or both down then I win and hopefully you learned what not to do.  The imporant thing is learning communication.  As we all know a good working pair should not have any trouble with a comparable single aircraft co alt and co E.  So if This works out, I should be blowing up, crashing, and burning a lot.  I was thinking around 8:30 central time in the DA on Wed., but the day of the week is pretty open and see what works best with most that are interested.

 
BigRat       

[mrmidi]

If my wing man is up to it we'll give it a shot....so what do you say baumer.

 
midi

[DropTine]

https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/Stage1lessons/Stage1.htm


https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/Stage2lessons/Stage2.htm


https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/stage3lessons/stage3frames.htm

I found this to be pretty informative and thought you guys might like to read
  DropTine

[Dichodog]

dad took me, sim, ray, and ARCHANGEL, to the DA tonight and we practiced winging with each other. 

I've always felt that working as a team would increase our successes in FSO's and make whatever arena you choose to fly in more fun for all of us.  One of the coolest things I ever saw in the MA's was going on a buff mission with the 91'st.  I forget who was escorting us but they got on a con and were seriously in tune with each other.  As soon as one would call 'off' one would call 'on' and they took the fighters away from us with, what looked like, relative ease. 

Mondays and Wednesdays are currently good for me but I truly think it would benefit the squad if we practiced winging together both during the week and on our 'off' Friday nights.

Post here what night and time is best for you.  <S> Mongrels

oh ya and fly AVA

[daddog]

After giving it some thought I was thinking that we should schedule this on Sunday Squad Nights.
I know the 68th Lighting Lancers always have 1/2 hour of practice before their stroll to the MA on Sunday nights. No reason we could not do the same.

Other thoughts?

[BigRat]

I'd be willing to be the target all night if needed.  Warning though, I will make you work for the kill.  The harder you have to work for it the more you remember how to do it.

 
BigRat

[Dichodog]

So can we do Sunday nights guys? BigRat you'd be training so what's your schedule look like?

[daddog]

No reason why not.
Lets plan on some kind of practice every Sunday night.
Anyone want to create some kind of schedule?

Like you BigRat I can play target.

[Dichodog]

My Sundays are wide open so any time is good for me. 

[BigRat]

Well how about this Sunday, we can go to the DA and work on some of this.  Shouldn't be a problem on my end.

 
BigRat

[Dichodog]

What time?

[BigRat]

If we can do regular squad time of 8 central on Sundays that would be fine with me.

 
BigRat

[Dichodog]

I'm in

[BigB]

Ditto... I need ALL the training I can get... I can only exploit being the squad
noob for so long.. Soon a newer noob will come along and then I'm in
trouble... !!.... LOL...

[daddog]

Sunday Squad times have been 9 PM Eastern for a long time. That is 8 Central right?

[BigRat]

Sunday Squad times have been 9 PM Eastern for a long time. That is 8 Central right?

You are correct sir

[Dichodog]

so 8 Central tomorrow? I'm in

[Dichodog]

make that maybe... every time I sit down at the comp today I get nauseated.  hoping that goes away in a bit

[daddog]

I will be on for this Sunday.
We will see who shows up.
I think both you and I can play target BigRat. Or we can play some 2 VS 1 and make them work together. Just depends on who attends. After 30 or 40 min we can go do a mission in the MA or something.

[Dichodog]

sorry guys I'm definitely out tonight

I really wanted to do this too.  Somebody roll some film for me to watch. 

[BigRat]

This is kinda frustrating for me, but let me try and put this as nicely as I can.  If you want to be successfull at this game, you have to put your time and effort into it.  Showing up on Fridays for FSO on a plane that you have't flown all week is a good recipe for failure.  Also not knowing what your enemy's strengths and weaknesses of their fighters is also part of that bad recipe.  Somebody please tell me what business a D9 has with an LA-7 below 12k feet.  Granted we ran into about he worst plane we could have, but those that stayed up to force the high CAP down, mostly lived.  If I still had enough high D9's, the tables could have been turned.  We actually ended up with a CAP over that base eventually, and the 234's made it in without any LA-7's  in sight, since they were all low.  Every D9 that went low, was picked off by an LA-7 in it's best environment.  Those that fly on a regular basis, are not the problem with our poor showings in FSO, in fact our regulars that I see flying during the week, do quite well.  You can see that from last years stats.  Now I know that this was never meant to be a serious squad and the primary purpose was to have fun.  That's fine, until you have part of the squad wanting to get better and the other part just shows up on Friday night.  This isn't much fun for the part of the squad that's wanting to get better.  It takes time and effort to get good at this game, and I'm only seeing it from a small part of this squad right now.  It's not like the tools and know how, to get better, aren't easy to find.   My offer has always been on the table, and there's plenty of Trainers that aren't busy with students most of the time.  Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I'm not the only one who notices this.

 
BigRat

[Malap]

I think it was Daddog who called for help from the Dora's and i saw MD with a bunch of LAs behind him so i went to help. By the time i got down there MD had been shot down and i had picked an LA up on my tail before i ran through the main group. I loitered  down there looking for any others from the low group before starting to climb away, sadly i had half a dozen LAs all chasing/shooting at me and i started to loose pieces and had to bail.

On another note, i don't have a wingman and haven't had one for some time now, and i most confess i tend to pop into the arenas by myself and i am guilty of flying solo even in FSO's.

[daddog]

I think you put it very nicely BigRat.

I did some more 2 VS 1 the other day with RAYL and DropTine. I have to say it was some of the better team work I have seen from this squad. I was in a Zeke and they were in the F4U's. I really had to work at staying alive and eventually they would get me. Sure they made some mistakes, but I did not have much time to take a shot before I had to break. What skill I have does not come from practicing every week, but from years of experience. 2 VS 1 is a great way to learn to work together with a wingman. Especially if the 1 is someone who can dodge the bullet much of the time. You would have to ask them, but IMHO they had to work to get me.

I will be on this Sunday and the Sundays that I make I will setup a 2 VS 1 for now. Then we can head off after 30 or 40 minutes and do something else. Since no one stepped up for the Sunday schedule I am fine with a regular 2 VS 1 setup and it will do those that participate some good.

[Dichodog]

Mal

you have one now if you're willing

Big I 100% agree with you.

I was lucky enough to fly the 190 all week during AVA.  Not sure how often that will happen but I'll take synchronicity where I can get it.

I don't know how many of you peruse the boards but I'm 99% of the time a light hearted, happy go lucky, devil may care, kind of guy.

When it comes to a mission I'm very serious.  Frankly Big the reason I haven't been pestering trainers is I'm getting a ton of schooling on a nightly basis and my forays into the TA wind up with me helping a new guy turn on his engine and setting up his radio.  Doesn't bother me a bit.

Now, as a team, we have the opportunity afforded to us to collectively get better.  I can tell everyone from personal experience that flying as a team will garner more kills for everyone and more people getting back to the base in one piece.  

This does not adversely affect the fun factor.  In fact it helps it.  If we all know what we're supposed to do on a mission and follow our directives in a plane we're somewhat familiar with we will ALL do better.  Knowing what's up frees the airwaves on climb outs for some light hearted joking around.

Here's an example.  Everybody knows I love the AVA.  Frankly it's my opinion some of the best pilots in the game hang out in there.  A normal night for me is up, get clobbered repeatedly, <S>, then reup.  A couple of weeks back Daddog and Silmaril came in and we communicated very effectively.  What do you know I shot down TheBug twice and Raven once.  Week before last Daddog and I went out on a sortie and, what do you know, I got three again.  Now to uber sticks that's nothing.  To me that's huge.  

Yesterday I was flying with JG1 and kicked the tar out of a 40 and a 38 that had alt and E advantages.  All because of communication and TEAMwork.

Gents I implore everyone who is not on Ventrillo to try to get it set up.  I'm no expert but I will do everything I can to help you get going any time after 4:30 pm CST.  Clear, concise, and effective, communications will help us a TON.  Sorry I lost you last night Terry.  

I also ask that if there's any way you can do it make the Sunday night training sessions.  It will make everybody more functional as a group, open up the airwaves, and allow us ALL to be more successful in the events we take part of as a group.  

Sincerely,

Dicho

PS

DD what do you mean?  I'm planning on being there tonight?  Feeling great and ready to roll sir






  

[BigRat]

Dicho,

Actually most of my statement wasn't toward you.  You are actually putting in your stick time.  You might be doing it the hard way, lumps and bruises to learn, but it's still learning .  That's the way I was taught, Optiker crushing my hopes and dreams, and I was determined to beat him.  Looking back on it, I probably should have gotten with a trainer and got some formal training, probably would have saved a lot of time, but I got there none the less.  Keep in mind though, being a better pilot, makes the teamwork all the more deadly.  If I'm confident my wingman can tackle one opponent on his own and we are up against 3.  I have the confidence that I can keep 2 busy enough to allow my wingman to kill the one, to even the odds.  So strong BFM is still very important, even in a team environment.

Also one thing, that I see as a constant issue here is bad SA from a surviveability perspective.  Friday night was a perfect example.  Our D9's only had one advantage in this fight, we were better at high alt speed wise.  The original idea of the plan last night was for the A8's to go in and drag the CAP down and we would come in above them and B&Z.  Great plan in theory, but not what we ran into.  The A8's went in and hit the base as planned, soon as we got over the base we ran into high LA-7's.  Obviously these have to be dealt with first or we are all dead.  About this same time the low group got hit and asked for help.  If we dive to save the low group we would now have 8 or so LA-7's over our head, along with the low ones, that out perform us in every way under 12k.  Obviously suicide at this point.  In hindsight I should of ordered all the D9's to stay high and deal with the high LA's first, but I believe I got busy and didn't think about it, or I'm used to blue flight just following what I do (most of blue flight stayed up with me). Eventually we pushed, or they went down to help themselves in the meatgrinder, all the high LA-7's.  Unfortunately every D9 that went low was lost in a fight that wasn't winable with our aircraft at low alt (assuming squad skill was equal).  The good part is it gave the 234's a clean run in since we still held the high airspace over the base albeit with only 5 planes.  If I could have kept all the D9's up I think we could of made a mess of the LA-7's, becouse they were running low on gas or ammo by the time we had the high ground since I could see them down there re-arming.  It was a tempting enough target that I tried for a run but, they timed it well enough that a few took off earlier evidently east of the base and came back higher , since I quickly found myself under two LA-7's.  So I aborted my vultch run and tried to escape back west.  One LA got to within 400 of me, so I tried one of the 190 quick flat scissors to get them out of phase and it worked and I got seperation.

  Don't get me wrong trying to help your squaddies is a good thing, but if he's dragging 5 on the deck and you give up 10k to help him by yourself, chances are you are also going to die, especially if they are LA-7's.  We now lost two planes instead of one, and the remainder that are still flying are now in a weaker position.  Look at your situation before you act, ask yourself if you can really make a positive result here.  Flown correctly you can sometimes clear 5 guys off one's six, but they have to be in such a way that you don't come down in front of any of their guns.  This is an SA decision, the right decision takes combat time and know how, with you aircraft and what you are flying against.   

 
BigRat